WB Group: “We Are Ready to Cooperate with Turkish Companies for 3rd Markets with Turkish Systems!”

Defence Turkey: Can we start our interview with some information on the WARMATE Loitering Munition System, which is one of WB GROUP’s flagship products and which is already in the Turkish market.  What can you tell us about WARMATE in Turkey and WARMATE in the global market?

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI: First of all, I would like to remind everyone that a couple years ago, the Turkish Armed Forces were one of our first foreign customers and bought the WARMATE loitering munition. We delivered it and trained the soldiers on the system’s operation. The WARMATE is a close air support system, an “on demand” solution for ground troops and small units. 

The WARMATE loitering munition is constantly developed. WB GROUP offers two modular WARMATE variants: fixed-wing WARMATE Backpack Carry (BC) and folding-wing WARMATE Tube Launch (TL). Now you can view both at our booth at SAHA Expo 2021. 

Defence Turkey: Can you explain to us what the differences are between the WARMATE variants?

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI:  The WARMATE BC (hung from the booth ceiling) loitering munitions is stored in one backpack weighing less than 15 kg and including interchangeable warheads. The system can be carried by a single soldier, but normally is transported inside the vehicle. The assembly takes place before the mission and includes the installation of an appropriate warhead. The WARMATE BC uses a lightweight pneumatic launcher, which can be deployed by hand. The launcher is very small, it weighs only 3 kg. 

The WARMATE is equipped with an exchangeable warhead. The warhead is selected before the mission, depending on what the target is. Here is a mock-up warhead. It is impossible to showcase a real warhead with explosive material at the defense expo, but in a real situation the user can choose from several different payloads. So, before the mission the soldier attaches a high-explosive, thermobaric, anti-tank or training warhead equipped with either a daylight camera or infrared (IR) camera. This is the WARMATE loitering munitions’ advantage, because other systems are equipped with a gyro-stabilized payload in front and fixed explosive module in the back. Our solution is more flexible, but also cost effective. The WARMATE platform is the same all the time, but you can freely exchange combat modules.

The system with fixed wings is characterized by a longer flight and better air performance. We are now delivering the more advanced WARMATE variant, especially in terms of combat capabilities. The system that we see here at SAHA is able to fly in the swarm, which means one soldier can control a group of WARMATE loitering munitions in the air at the same time.  

Defence Turkey: Can you share any figures about the number of WARMATEs that can be controlled in the swarm mode?

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI: One soldier can manage up to ten WARMATE units per in the air, using a single ground control station. Then he can choose one, two, three or as many as he wants to engage targets. 

Defence Turkey: But the early version that entered the Turkish Army service didn’t have this capability?

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI: WB GROUP systems are always delivered in line with the user’s requirements. The swarm capability was introduced a few years ago. Now, we also doubled the operational range. The WARMATE can be sent up to even 80 km, where control then can be switched to a different Ground Control Station (GCS), so we go over radio line-of-sight range. 

We don’t use the classic connection between the GCS and the air vehicle in the air. You can send them automatically to the target area where the special operation team/forward observer can take control over the WARMATEs. 

(Editor’s Note: Troops on the ground can call on WARMATE when needed by using U-GATE terminals [a C4ISR-Extended System enables operatives to direct strikes from loitering munitions such as WARMATE, also made by WB GROUP] at a few kilometers in open terrain. Tests have shown that a single operator can effectively control up to ten WARMATEs simultaneously for coordinated attacks).

Defence Turkey: How can you ensure the communication between the air vehicle and special operation team in the forward area? Is it encrypted?

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI: There is a special way of communication, when WARMATEs go to the target area, they report to the extended observer in a silent mode. The FLYEYE unmanned aerial system and the WARMATE loitering munitions use the same radio. All communications are encrypted. What is more important, the new WARMATE variant has a new radio, which is combat proven in FLYEYE UAS. Our solution worked properly in the electronic warfare environment.

Defence Turkey: So, your system has been used in Ukraine?

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI: Ukraine is one of WB GROUP’s customers that we delivered our advanced solutions to. The provided systems are all being intensively used all the time.

Defence Turkey:  Is WARMATE TL deployed with use of the tube-launch take-off system?  

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI: Let me show you now the folding-wing WARMATE Tube Launch (TL) variant. This system is based on the same common components used also in BC variant: radio, aiming system, computer onboard, and warheads. The WARMATE TL can be carried by a single soldier, but can also be integrated with air, land, and naval platforms. For example, the WARMATE TL is planned to be transported by bigger manned or unmanned aerial or ground systems. 

Defence Turkey: Did you have any discussion or cooperation for integrating it for the Polish Army BAYRAKTAR TB2 Armed UAVs also? Is it on-going?

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI: The WARMATE TL can be integrated with various models of armed unmanned aerial vehicles, including Turkish-made. The system will be mounted under the UAV wing. To complete this, we had to redesign the WARMATE launch. The system has to be slightly different, since no pneumatic launcher is needed. The loitering munitions will simply drop from the host during flight. This is an even simpler solution, because since the unmanned platform already gives the WARMATE TL a certain speed to fly, you do not need an additional launcher.

Defence Turkey: So, while it is falling down its canards/wings are deployed, and the engine starts?

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI: Yes, exactly. The WARMATE starts to operate like a cruise missile…

Defence Turkey: So how many of them can be carried in each BAYRAKTAR TB2 Armed UAVs?  

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI:  A large armed drone can carry up to four or even six WARMATE TL systems, which means that two-three loitering munitions can be transported under each wing.  The WARMATE TL weights only 5 kg. 

Defence Turkey: So, on an Armed UAV the WARMATE TL, with folded wings, would be deployed directly under the wings? Is it going to be deployed in a canister/tube?  

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI: The WARMATE TL system is to be carried under the wing of an aerial platform without any launcher tube. This is what happens when you drop these from the plane (showing how the wings are deployed). So, in some distance after separating from the host, the wings will unfold and WARMATE TL fly on by itself. The tube launchers will be installed on unmanned ground vehicles or combat boats. WB GROUP has already shown such solutions with six and nine integrated tubes. 

Defence Turkey: So, you said that it can be controlled up to 80 km?

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI: The combat range of WARMATE loitering munition is 80 km. Radio line of sight (RLOS) distance is shorter when a GCS terminal with an antenna is located on the ground level. However, if the antenna is placed higher – for example on a mast or on board the aerial unmanned system, the control distance is extended to 80 km. 

Defence Turkey: I just want to get an understanding of the CONOPS of its deployment on the BAYRAKTAR Armed UAV. I launch it, it flies up to 80 km, there are some Special Forces personnel/forward observers on the ground, they communicate with it, and they direct it to the target?

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI: Yes, or this communication can be managed via other unmanned aerial platforms, because it’s the second option. So, we don’t have to send troops when we have a larger armed UAV at disposal. So, there are options on how to manage…

Defence Turkey: How would you ensure the communication between the BAYRAKTAR TB2 and WARMATE TL Loitering Munition System? There must be some kind of datalink between them?

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI: The datalink here is already implemented in the WARMATE, and we need to implement the same link in the unmanned platform. The larger UAV will serve as a signal transmitter. So, the WARMATE loitering munition operator may be located in the same place as the operator of larger platform. There are many ways both systems work together, but what is very important is this is all Polish technologies. WB GROUP doesn’t depend on any foreign subcontractors, who might say “No, sorry we won’t sell you something” for whatever reasons. 

Defence Turkey: So, it is ITAR Free? 

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI:  Yes, it is a ITAR free solution. WB GROUP developed its own loitering munitions systems. Additionally, we also designed the small U-GATE Dismounted Observation & Command System as the control extending device for WARMATE loitering munitions. Using the U-GATE, the operator takes control of WARMATE and can direct it to the target.

Defence Turkey: And are you also providing/supplying this equipment to the end user? 

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI: Of course, support of the customer is a natural part of WB GROUP’s business. Not only manufacturing, but also training, and any kind of support package. The U-GATE system allows you to control WARMATE and to get the reconnaissance video from FLYEYE UAV system. The U-GATE is a multi-role device for the military.   

Defence Turkey: Can you elaborate on the communication range of U-GATE System?   

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI: The control range of U-GATE is a few kilometers, because it is a very compact device, equipped with a short antenna. But what is important, it works in the “silent mode”. That means that U-GATE is not detectable by electronic warfare systems. You can take control over WARMATE and nobody knows that you are in the area. 

Defence Turkey: So, for targeting, for aiming to the target, does U-GATE send some kind of laser towards the target to illuminate it? 

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI: The WARMATE uses the artificial intelligence (AI) aiming technology integrated with the platform. It is based on the video imagery with the video tracker to support aiming. Take a look at the screen. For example, this is my target. I put the finger on the screen and then the WARMATE video tracker starts tracking. You can also use a small joystick to control the loitering munition, but for a moment you will see how the target is selected, the AI system starts to assist the user. The artificial intelligence is connected with the WARMATE autopilot. So, even if you lose the communication it will go to the target directly, because it’s based on the target image. Some clients also ask if WB GROUP can integrate WARMATE with the laser pointers. Yes, we can, but we have a more independent solution.

Defence Turkey: You have underlined that WARMATE Loitering Munition Systems have been supplied to the Turkish Army. Did you also deliver U-GATE to the Turkish Army? 

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI: The U-GATE is a brand-new solution. WB GROUP introduced the system to the market a few years ago. 

Defence Turkey: Is U-GATE compatible with WARMATE 3.0. & WARMATE TL versions now?  

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI: U-GATE is compatible with all WARMATE loitering munitions variants, as well as FLYEYE unmanned aerial system. The name is short for the term ‘Ultra Gate’. It is a gate to the simultaneous communication with many devices at the same time. U-GATE is integrated with an augmented reality on the video and you can see the position of your troops, and enemy on the live image. It is a high-performance device. 

Defence Turkey: WB GROUP also developed a new and upgraded version of WARMATE, which is dubbed WARMATE 2. The much bigger and mightier WARMATE 2 adds more impact power and flight endurance to the precision and swiftness of WARMATE. Can you elaborate on WARMATE 2?

Marcin MACIEJEWSKI: WARMATE 2 carries around 5 kg payload to engage armored or fortified targets. We developed this project with one of our Middle East customers. WARMATE 2’s range is up to 250 km. 

Defence Turkey: What can you tell us about your participation in SAHA Expo 2021?

Dawid BIELECKI: WB GROUP presents its offer to the Turkish market. We can cooperate with local companies to develop together any type of advanced military systems and to combine WB GROUP’s solutions with ideas of Turkish engineers. We are all ready for cooperation.

Defence Turkey: But you know Turkey is also on a very advanced level in the UAV sector. So, in which fields do you wish to cooperate with Turkish companies? Designing a new generation, new type of tactical or small UAVs, or some other technologies, which fields are you targeting?

Dawid BIELECKI: WB GROUP is a recognized integrator and manufacturer of advanced, military electronics and information and communication technology systems. Part of our business is development of unmanned platforms and loitering munitions. WB GROUP has larger and smaller multirole unmanned aerial systems (UAS) in the portfolio, like FT-5 or FLYEYE. 

A number of FLYEYE systems has been serving in the Polish and other Armed Forces since 2010. It’s been over 10 years, so we have a lot of knowledge and experience. Our subsystems like avionics or autopilot are our intellectual property, so some technology can be transferred to the larger UAV systems. When a client decides to use WB GROUP’s avionics or communications system, we can integrate the solution with user’s technology and build it together.

Defence Turkey: And also do you have any plans to start cooperation with Turkish companies for the 3rd markets, 3rd countries? For example, in Europe, or in Africa, in the Balkans?

Dawid BIELECKI: Of course, we are ready to cooperate with other countries with Turkish systems. So, we can equip your system with our avionics and succeed in foreign markets together. 

Defence Turkey: Can you elaborate on FLYEYE light, compact-sized Unmanned Aerial System (UAS)? What can you tell us about its payload capacity, range and endurance?

Dawid BIELECKI: The range of the FLYEYE UAVs is only limited to the endurance of the system. Right now, the flight time is 3 hours. It’s a motor glider with electric propulsion, we use the engine only 10 percent of the flight time. We climb to a proper air ceiling and turn off the engine. Then the FLYEYE works as a glider. So, if we have good weather and lift, the system flight time is more than 3 hours. The FLYEYE can also perform secret surveillance. You can fly over the target, turn off the engine – let’s say during the night – and loiter over the target until you reach the lowest point and then go out and climb again and go back. This is the only system on the market that is a motor glider, not a regular small airplane.

Defence Turkey: What about its payload capacity?

Dawid BIELECKI: Onboard we have daylight and IR camera, so in the same flight you can prepare daylight surveillance. During daylight you will fly over the forest and see somebody in there, and you can switch it to IR and find the target in the forest. The FLYEYE can be also used as a radio transmitter for troops on the ground. 

Defence Turkey: What about its take-off and landing, does it need a runway or a catapult for take-off?

Dawid BIELECKI: The FLYEYE is a hand-launched system. The total weight is just 12 kg. It features an ejectable payload system. Before the autonomous landing the payload system is released on a parachute over the landing point to prevent any damage to the cameras. The payload (including main battery and the camera) constitutes half of the weight of the system. The payload lands on a parachute and the aerial platform flies to the same point. So, we send the system to land in exactly the same area: the payload and also the platform. 

Defence Turkey: So, they land separately?

Dawid BIELECKI:Yes, they land separately. Because if you lose half of the weight, you can slow down to stall speed and land, touch down within minimal space at a 36 kph speed. Air vehicle performs belly land on the grass, but we don’t need a runway. We just touch down at the point. Of course, without obstacles in the path of the gliding, we need about 100 meters, it’s enough. So, we can launch the system in an urbanized area, let’s say in the city, and prepare the landing somewhere, like a parking place…

Defence Turkey: So, you said it has been in operation for 10 years. Have you made any exports?

Dawid BIELECKI: The system has been proved in the conflict in Ukraine. 

Defence Turkey: Does the FLYEYE UAS have foldable wings?

Dawid BIELECKI: The FLYEYE is a fixed wing unmanned aerial system. Because the system is backpack carried, the UAV is assembled before flight. We designed this bag especially for the FLYEYE. One person carries the system with camera and payload and the second person takes the Ground Control Station. 

Defence Turkey: So, it ejects its camera before landing? 

Dawid BIELECKI:Yes, this button ejects it.

Defence Turkey: Is there any altitude limit for payload system ejection?

Dawid BIELECKI:: It is 50 meters. It’s only for touch down and the rest is slows down under the stall speed and then touches down in this area.

Defence Turkey: Do you also have a bigger version?  

Dawid BIELECKI: WB GROUP developed a twin engine FT-5 Tactical Aerial Platform. You can see it here. We designed a few FT-5 variants, including the version with an electric propulsion. It is launched from a catapult and lands on the belly. But this FT-5 shown on the screen is powered by piston engines and performs runaway take-off and landing. A runway is not necessary, a solid surface (for example concrete) is enough for take-off and touch down.

Defence Turkey: Does the FT-5 have foldable landing gears?

Dawid BIELECKI: Fixed at the moment. We are developing a new version with foldable gears, but the variant shown has fixed gears. It is equipped with a stabilized payload system (with 30x optical zoom capability) which consists of a daylight full HD camera and IR MWIR (cooled) camera. The FT-5 UAS has an endurance of 10 hours. Our radio link, the same that we use for FLYEYE and WARMATE systems, allows it to fly up to 200 kilometers. 

If a client is looking for cooperation, WB GROUP can make a transfer of technology in the field of avionics or radio link to local systems. When you have your own aerial platform, you can just take our solutions and integrate them with your bird. We can prepare together a product for Turkish or other markets.  

Defence Turkey: Mr. MACIEJEWSKI and Mr. BIELECKI thank you for sparing time for our readers and sharing such interesting information with us